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	<title>Comments on: Payola, value judgments, and other jibber-jabber</title>
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	<description>someone warn the plains!</description>
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		<title>By: Knobtweakers</title>
		<link>http://www.marathonpacks.com/2006/04/payola-value-judgments-and-other/comment-page-1/#comment-620</link>
		<dc:creator>Knobtweakers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Apr 2006 23:04:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://174.132.200.226/~marathon/mpax/2006/04/payola-value-judgments-and-other-jibber-jabber.html#comment-620</guid>
		<description>I tend to agree that disclosure is the best way to keep everybody honest.  That doesn&#039;t mean that getting CDs in the mail is bad (I get them, too, of course).  I&#039;m merely suggesting that blogs who are not ashamed to talk about it earn credibility.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I tend to agree that disclosure is the best way to keep everybody honest.  That doesn&#8217;t mean that getting CDs in the mail is bad (I get them, too, of course).  I&#8217;m merely suggesting that blogs who are not ashamed to talk about it earn credibility.</p>
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		<title>By: Stepfather Factory</title>
		<link>http://www.marathonpacks.com/2006/04/payola-value-judgments-and-other/comment-page-1/#comment-613</link>
		<dc:creator>Stepfather Factory</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Apr 2006 01:38:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://174.132.200.226/~marathon/mpax/2006/04/payola-value-judgments-and-other-jibber-jabber.html#comment-613</guid>
		<description>I just posted the comment below over at One Louder. It is only vaguely relevant to the conversation at hand. That said, somewhere in what I&#039;m saying there is something relating to authenticity. I am entirely too tired...&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;ONWARD!!!&lt;br/&gt;------------------------------&lt;br/&gt;Holy Crap.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Angryrobot - I feel like you&#039;re missing an underlying truth to all this - WE ARE HIRED BY LABELS. LABELS YOU LIKE. I didn&#039;t invent some eeeeevil promoter job where i sit in a high rise corner office and set out to commodify blogs, (which I enjoy and which i write, enthusiastically and openly and without trying to hide where work and play meet,)  turning them from pure, write-out-of-love enterprises into a machine for press releases and shwag.  &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Yes, there are shitty blogs that write about shitty bands just because they got the CD in the mail. FINE. But I have a problem with the notion that the very NATURE of PR is the underlying problem. (This goes to jason&#039;s comment, too, that &quot;The PR companies hope you&#039;ll spread some positive word of mouth in return for their charity. To me, this is the crux of the problem.&quot;) You want to write about the bands you love. What&#039;s wrong with a promoter sending you a record with the notion that you might love it? Yes, some do a better job then others. Some work on a large scale where they can afford to send out 500 CDs and see who &quot;bites.&quot; The byproduct of that is that they get the lazy people, too. Others (like myself) send out, say, 75 CDs to people we think will genuinely enjoy and yes maybe love what we&#039;re sending. The reason we are hired (and, on a good day, the reason I love my job) is that I am set on a mission to bring band and fan together, and to maybe maybe maybe help a band get one step closer to being full time musicians. and the point is NOT that I&#039;m some exception to the rule or I want to show everyone how credible I am, the point is that the UNDERLYING CONCEPT, for me and for the major-label-sending-out-too-many-copies-of-the-mediocre-band, is the same: bring band and fan together.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt; If someone&#039;s tactics are shady, or a writer is caught WILLFULLY LYING about liking a band they secretly hate, call them out, loudly if you like. But the underlying concept of promotion is not the problem, and the notion that a writer should be made to feel bad, or hesitate about writing about a band he or she truly likes, just because the CD came in the mail, is (to me) totally contrary to the notion of being a music fan.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Finally, to jason, who said, &quot;How do you discern whether someone is being honest in their praise or is just paying back the free tickets?&quot;  READ THE BLOG. I&#039;m sure (and I seem sarcastic but I mean this sincerely) you can tell when you&#039;re reading the words of a fan and when you&#039;re reading lip service. Really.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just posted the comment below over at One Louder. It is only vaguely relevant to the conversation at hand. That said, somewhere in what I&#8217;m saying there is something relating to authenticity. I am entirely too tired&#8230;</p>
<p>ONWARD!!!<br />&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;<br />Holy Crap.</p>
<p>Angryrobot &#8211; I feel like you&#8217;re missing an underlying truth to all this &#8211; WE ARE HIRED BY LABELS. LABELS YOU LIKE. I didn&#8217;t invent some eeeeevil promoter job where i sit in a high rise corner office and set out to commodify blogs, (which I enjoy and which i write, enthusiastically and openly and without trying to hide where work and play meet,)  turning them from pure, write-out-of-love enterprises into a machine for press releases and shwag.  </p>
<p>Yes, there are shitty blogs that write about shitty bands just because they got the CD in the mail. FINE. But I have a problem with the notion that the very NATURE of PR is the underlying problem. (This goes to jason&#8217;s comment, too, that &#8220;The PR companies hope you&#8217;ll spread some positive word of mouth in return for their charity. To me, this is the crux of the problem.&#8221;) You want to write about the bands you love. What&#8217;s wrong with a promoter sending you a record with the notion that you might love it? Yes, some do a better job then others. Some work on a large scale where they can afford to send out 500 CDs and see who &#8220;bites.&#8221; The byproduct of that is that they get the lazy people, too. Others (like myself) send out, say, 75 CDs to people we think will genuinely enjoy and yes maybe love what we&#8217;re sending. The reason we are hired (and, on a good day, the reason I love my job) is that I am set on a mission to bring band and fan together, and to maybe maybe maybe help a band get one step closer to being full time musicians. and the point is NOT that I&#8217;m some exception to the rule or I want to show everyone how credible I am, the point is that the UNDERLYING CONCEPT, for me and for the major-label-sending-out-too-many-copies-of-the-mediocre-band, is the same: bring band and fan together.</p>
<p> If someone&#8217;s tactics are shady, or a writer is caught WILLFULLY LYING about liking a band they secretly hate, call them out, loudly if you like. But the underlying concept of promotion is not the problem, and the notion that a writer should be made to feel bad, or hesitate about writing about a band he or she truly likes, just because the CD came in the mail, is (to me) totally contrary to the notion of being a music fan.</p>
<p>Finally, to jason, who said, &#8220;How do you discern whether someone is being honest in their praise or is just paying back the free tickets?&#8221;  READ THE BLOG. I&#8217;m sure (and I seem sarcastic but I mean this sincerely) you can tell when you&#8217;re reading the words of a fan and when you&#8217;re reading lip service. Really.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://www.marathonpacks.com/2006/04/payola-value-judgments-and-other/comment-page-1/#comment-609</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Apr 2006 03:06:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://174.132.200.226/~marathon/mpax/2006/04/payola-value-judgments-and-other-jibber-jabber.html#comment-609</guid>
		<description>looks like I&#039;m a little late to say &quot;excellent post&quot; but I just want to echo what Sonicdeath99 said - I blog on the side, and a good 50% of the things I post about come in the mail from my journalism gigs. It is honestly a little more of a grey area from a journalistic perspective - an unbiased reporter isn&#039;t supposed to receive perks, which free CDs/concert tickets could certainly be considered, but at the same time, our job is to write about albums prior to when they come out in stores and review inaccessible sold-out concerts, so ultimately what it comes down to is seeking out what you find interesting/relevant and asking the labels/PR to do &lt;i&gt;their&lt;/i&gt; jobs and help you out. It&#039;s a win-win situation. Most of the stuff we get, we don&#039;t time or inclination to cover, which is true for every publication (or blog) in the universe, so I don&#039;t see how anyone could really consider just receiving things for free an obligation. Even if you HAD to post on everything you got, it would be impossible, and besides, who wants to do that? &lt;br/&gt; &lt;br/&gt;Obviously blogging isn&#039;t subject to the same strict ethical standards because ultimately the reader gets to decide whether they like an mp3 or not, an interaction they don&#039;t necessarily get to have with a print review, but I think the same basic precepts can still be applied.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>looks like I&#8217;m a little late to say &#8220;excellent post&#8221; but I just want to echo what Sonicdeath99 said &#8211; I blog on the side, and a good 50% of the things I post about come in the mail from my journalism gigs. It is honestly a little more of a grey area from a journalistic perspective &#8211; an unbiased reporter isn&#8217;t supposed to receive perks, which free CDs/concert tickets could certainly be considered, but at the same time, our job is to write about albums prior to when they come out in stores and review inaccessible sold-out concerts, so ultimately what it comes down to is seeking out what you find interesting/relevant and asking the labels/PR to do <i>their</i> jobs and help you out. It&#8217;s a win-win situation. Most of the stuff we get, we don&#8217;t time or inclination to cover, which is true for every publication (or blog) in the universe, so I don&#8217;t see how anyone could really consider just receiving things for free an obligation. Even if you HAD to post on everything you got, it would be impossible, and besides, who wants to do that? </p>
<p>Obviously blogging isn&#8217;t subject to the same strict ethical standards because ultimately the reader gets to decide whether they like an mp3 or not, an interaction they don&#8217;t necessarily get to have with a print review, but I think the same basic precepts can still be applied.</p>
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		<title>By: karen</title>
		<link>http://www.marathonpacks.com/2006/04/payola-value-judgments-and-other/comment-page-1/#comment-608</link>
		<dc:creator>karen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Apr 2006 01:52:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://174.132.200.226/~marathon/mpax/2006/04/payola-value-judgments-and-other-jibber-jabber.html#comment-608</guid>
		<description>i hate to represent an unpopular opinion, especially with so many well thought-out and valid points being made. but i do disagree on one point.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;it&#039;s not payola to get free cds or entrance to shows or anything of that sort. but it&#039;s not exactly true that it&#039;s impossible for there to be blog payola. it may not be going on now, but i think if somebody actually were being paid real money to blog about certain things that would, in fact, be at least pretty damn analogous to payola. to me, payola = acting like you made a decision about what to blog about based on finding something interesting vs. doing so for totally mercenary reasons. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;again, i don&#039;t know of any cases of this happening and i don&#039;t think getting free stuff is even remotely the same thing. and i don&#039;t think there should be some kind of arbitrary &quot;standard&quot; to apply to blogs; having a blog isn&#039;t the same thing as being a journalist, unless maybe somebody chooses to treat it that way for themselves only. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;other than that one nitpicky point, you&#039;ve laid out a very logical and persuasive argument.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i hate to represent an unpopular opinion, especially with so many well thought-out and valid points being made. but i do disagree on one point.</p>
<p>it&#8217;s not payola to get free cds or entrance to shows or anything of that sort. but it&#8217;s not exactly true that it&#8217;s impossible for there to be blog payola. it may not be going on now, but i think if somebody actually were being paid real money to blog about certain things that would, in fact, be at least pretty damn analogous to payola. to me, payola = acting like you made a decision about what to blog about based on finding something interesting vs. doing so for totally mercenary reasons. </p>
<p>again, i don&#8217;t know of any cases of this happening and i don&#8217;t think getting free stuff is even remotely the same thing. and i don&#8217;t think there should be some kind of arbitrary &#8220;standard&#8221; to apply to blogs; having a blog isn&#8217;t the same thing as being a journalist, unless maybe somebody chooses to treat it that way for themselves only. </p>
<p>other than that one nitpicky point, you&#8217;ve laid out a very logical and persuasive argument.</p>
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		<title>By: rockfag</title>
		<link>http://www.marathonpacks.com/2006/04/payola-value-judgments-and-other/comment-page-1/#comment-607</link>
		<dc:creator>rockfag</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Apr 2006 00:41:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://174.132.200.226/~marathon/mpax/2006/04/payola-value-judgments-and-other-jibber-jabber.html#comment-607</guid>
		<description>and R. Kelly</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>and R. Kelly</p>
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		<title>By: marathonpacks</title>
		<link>http://www.marathonpacks.com/2006/04/payola-value-judgments-and-other/comment-page-1/#comment-584</link>
		<dc:creator>marathonpacks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Apr 2006 21:54:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://174.132.200.226/~marathon/mpax/2006/04/payola-value-judgments-and-other-jibber-jabber.html#comment-584</guid>
		<description>Hitler&#039;s blog has tons of Wagner.  And Coldplay.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hitler&#8217;s blog has tons of Wagner.  And Coldplay.</p>
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		<title>By: Catbirdseat</title>
		<link>http://www.marathonpacks.com/2006/04/payola-value-judgments-and-other/comment-page-1/#comment-583</link>
		<dc:creator>Catbirdseat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Apr 2006 21:41:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://174.132.200.226/~marathon/mpax/2006/04/payola-value-judgments-and-other-jibber-jabber.html#comment-583</guid>
		<description>Personally, I don&#039;t care if it was posted by a blogger, a fake blogger, a PR company, a record label, or Adolf Freaking Hitler.  &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;The music is either good or bad, and either you like it, or you don&#039;t.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Personally, I don&#8217;t care if it was posted by a blogger, a fake blogger, a PR company, a record label, or Adolf Freaking Hitler.  </p>
<p>The music is either good or bad, and either you like it, or you don&#8217;t.</p>
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		<title>By: irving longface</title>
		<link>http://www.marathonpacks.com/2006/04/payola-value-judgments-and-other/comment-page-1/#comment-582</link>
		<dc:creator>irving longface</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Apr 2006 17:09:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://174.132.200.226/~marathon/mpax/2006/04/payola-value-judgments-and-other-jibber-jabber.html#comment-582</guid>
		<description>i want to confess that i took payola from the orangette soda company for my latest masterwork. they provided your boy with 48 orange sodas. i drank half of one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i want to confess that i took payola from the orangette soda company for my latest masterwork. they provided your boy with 48 orange sodas. i drank half of one.</p>
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		<title>By: marathonpacks</title>
		<link>http://www.marathonpacks.com/2006/04/payola-value-judgments-and-other/comment-page-1/#comment-579</link>
		<dc:creator>marathonpacks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Apr 2006 11:31:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://174.132.200.226/~marathon/mpax/2006/04/payola-value-judgments-and-other-jibber-jabber.html#comment-579</guid>
		<description>the general assumption with the &quot;anti&quot; position is that there&#039;s a tacit understanding between the blogger and the PR people that what they send &lt;i&gt;will&lt;/i&gt; be posted.  It just doesn&#039;t exist.  I&#039;ve never felt any sort of &quot;pressure&quot; from any PR people to put anything up, let alone with a positive bent.  Which is why I see PR freebies as just another form of label publicity--direct-mail advertising, that, just like mass-mediated messages, can be ignored if so chosen.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;As for the &quot;more transparency&quot; issue, that&#039;s asking for an instutional ethics to be put in place for what is essentially a broad, heterogenous network of content producers, without any mention of how such a thing would be implemented.  Sure, blogger A could type on his/her laptop &quot;I bought this CD after months of searching at my local record store, which has no visible corporate affiliation&quot;.  Would this make a post more &quot;valid&quot;?  Wouldn&#039;t someone who&#039;d shill for a label in the first place just lie about it anyway?  Journalists, again, are part of an &lt;i&gt;institution&lt;/i&gt;, and what comes with that is an assumption that they&#039;ll tell the truth.  Whether they do or not is subjective, but it&#039;s assumed that they just will, or get publicly shamed for not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>the general assumption with the &#8220;anti&#8221; position is that there&#8217;s a tacit understanding between the blogger and the PR people that what they send <i>will</i> be posted.  It just doesn&#8217;t exist.  I&#8217;ve never felt any sort of &#8220;pressure&#8221; from any PR people to put anything up, let alone with a positive bent.  Which is why I see PR freebies as just another form of label publicity&#8211;direct-mail advertising, that, just like mass-mediated messages, can be ignored if so chosen.</p>
<p>As for the &#8220;more transparency&#8221; issue, that&#8217;s asking for an instutional ethics to be put in place for what is essentially a broad, heterogenous network of content producers, without any mention of how such a thing would be implemented.  Sure, blogger A could type on his/her laptop &#8220;I bought this CD after months of searching at my local record store, which has no visible corporate affiliation&#8221;.  Would this make a post more &#8220;valid&#8221;?  Wouldn&#8217;t someone who&#8217;d shill for a label in the first place just lie about it anyway?  Journalists, again, are part of an <i>institution</i>, and what comes with that is an assumption that they&#8217;ll tell the truth.  Whether they do or not is subjective, but it&#8217;s assumed that they just will, or get publicly shamed for not.</p>
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		<title>By: cbotwell</title>
		<link>http://www.marathonpacks.com/2006/04/payola-value-judgments-and-other/comment-page-1/#comment-578</link>
		<dc:creator>cbotwell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Apr 2006 06:15:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://174.132.200.226/~marathon/mpax/2006/04/payola-value-judgments-and-other-jibber-jabber.html#comment-578</guid>
		<description>The only promo cd&#039;s i have been sent actually sparked mmy interest. One I had seen in concert and felt good enough about them to do a post as I enjoyed it. The later sparked my interest to go to a concert and ended wiht me actually liking a few tracks off the album. This is the best analysis on any of the music blogs I have ever seen.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The only promo cd&#8217;s i have been sent actually sparked mmy interest. One I had seen in concert and felt good enough about them to do a post as I enjoyed it. The later sparked my interest to go to a concert and ended wiht me actually liking a few tracks off the album. This is the best analysis on any of the music blogs I have ever seen.</p>
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